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Page history last edited by PBworks 16 years, 10 months ago

We have the tentative players at the table, so lets start tweaking the characters. This is for technical aspects-- wealth distribution, clas and feat allocation, rule clarification, and optimizing team efficiency.


Skills - we should pick who knows what

Fractional Saves - a page to work out how they work

Possession - liner notes and rules quirks

Comparing the Builds - a link to compare how each of us stack up for game balance

Spells - discussion on what we can cast, or what we'd like our party members to be able to cast for us


Well, here is what we apparently have on the plate so far...

davidwl sha'ir eldritch theurge

dhraksis half earth template whispergnome ??

noldorforce akashic chameleon gish

surreal ghost mindspy telekineticist

zarzak hellfire planarshepard


wait wait wait-- a celestial shepard, a sha'ir, a ghost, a gish and a gnome walk into a bar... Ouch. (dumbest joke evar... wait.. why did the monkey fall out of the tree? Because it was dead.)


A spontaneous caster with druid/cleric/wizard access.... I'd actually pick psion over druid, but that is your choice. (150% transparent psionics.. eldritch theurge did not deny psionics as accesible.)


A Celestial Hellfire Planar shepard (what was that dragon magazine PrC the divine flame?) Being able to pop a stairway to heaven wherever whenever is pretty nice with wildshpaes to spare.. I assume yer gonna go celestial eventually with wildshaping... an astral deva chucking 18d6 divine flame is pretty hip.


Akashic Gish... well, kinda gish. not too much on spell casting, if I recall... but akashic has cool abilities and are hella skillmonkeys, yes?. we're gonna have to develope a priesthood of some sort for this character to interact with reality well.


A dead guy. We're going with the MM template for simpicity. I really want to utilize ghostwalk for any "mistakes" that may occur, but until I can recover the info, no one die, 'k? You were talking about a genie bloodline? I really think that could blend with the sha'ir rather well conceptually, but that is taking us down the path of arabian nights. I don't mind if no oe else does. Do you plan on taking control of some bad mofo monster for yer flesh suit, or what? I'd allow construct possesion, for the record. (a shield guardian may be affordable for you at this stage. MotUH will be fanTASTIC with a ghost. phantom weapons floating about is spooky.


Dhraksis is the wild card. I'm not sure why he's jazzing on the half elemental yet-- perhaps a tank of some sort? He'll speak for himself here soon.


so we got hella spellcasting power, we got little meat shield. We'll either be avoiding lots of fighting, or y'all plan on bringing in reinforcements when shit hits the fan. We got some skilloing, but no obvious diplomancer. talk amonster yerselves.




DavidWL -


Thanks for the comment Fil - I've switched out Druidic casting for Psionics.


As far as flavor - I'm thinking that while the mechanics will stay the same, I want the character to be someone who has delved into the nooks and cranies of magic, and has shaved of a part of his soul (his Gen), to go into the outer reaches to wrestle magic from the universe. I'm planning on removing a lot of the "Arabian" flavor, and substituting something more mystic and slightly dark. I'll throw out a number of hooks which others can latch onto in a couple of days.


I'm planning on being an ok-ish diplomancer (because I'll have such a high Charisma anyway). A man of few, but powerfully moving, words.


At 10th level: I should be around 28 Charisma => Diplomacy check 13 (ranks) + 9 (Charisma) + 6 (Synergy) +2 (outsider) = +30 for Diplomacy checks. Very respectable.


That said, I think Surreal was planning on being the primary Diplomancer (he took the changling substitution level, which gives massive perks for social skills).


Also, FYI: I've finished (roughly) writing up the rules related to my build. I still have a lot of blanks to fill in (equipment, history, spell choice, feats, character snapshots, skills, ...), but all the rules are now there.


Surreal -


No worries about me "dying", as ghosts are notoriously hard to kill. If my host body goes down, I'll probably retreat and/or mentally zap things from a safe distance. Even if my ghost form is "killed", I rejuvenate in a couple days (in the event of that, I'll probably just wreck havok as an NPC, hehe).


As for being party face, that might be tricky. I can only possess bodies for a certain amount of time (although it seems I have unlimited uses of that ability). Hmm, I'll have to figure something out.


I'm talking with Fil about how to handle my wealth, since as a ghost I really don't have much for possessions. One idea was a construct(s) that I can use as a body... Ooh! (lightbulb moment) maybe a flesh golem so that I can still use my changeling/warshaper abilities? We were also discussing maybe some type of VoP variant to make up for my lack of items. Hmm, too much stuff still on the drawing board. Ack, late for work. Ciao.


Noldor -


I can be an alternate Diplomancer if need be, but I'm more likely to throw points into Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive. Bluff will be helped by the fact that I could cast Glibness, and potentially force nonmagical no-save Suggestions on people.


Having multiple characters with social skills would be good, considering Aid Another and the Complete Adventurer rules on taking a penalty to help others.


In combat, I'll be wanting some help in flanking, considering Staggering Strike.


ZarZak -


My skills are not to great. I have some knowledge skills, but not much else ... besides Use Magic Device. Thats around .... 18 now, I think. Which is respectable.


As for combat, I'll be pretty strong. I can wildshape into whatever we need, I have some very nice celestial tank forms available. I also have a very strong eldritch blast (7d6 now, it will eventually be 25d6), besides druid casting and invocations. At 14th level I will become a planetar, with all of the aweseomness that entails - much buffed stats, huge AC boost, and 17th level cleric casting (!!!) and some very nice spell-like abilities. Later on I'll become a Solar (if we get that far, I hope we do).


So, if we need to I can be tank, and I'm also a pretty strong support character. I will also have an animal companion, a dragon hawk. It is a huge animal (if I remember right) that can fly, so transportation for the party should not be a problem.


Oh, and as mentioned I can take the party to celestia or elysium whenever we want. Speaking of which, does anyone have a preference for which I choose? I'm going to do more reading and thinking ... right now I'm leaning towards elysium mechanics wise (for planar bubble), but celestia has more of the flavor I want ... hmm.


Surreal -


I'm also maybe considering a dip into Marshall since I will have rediculous Cha. Any suggestions for which aura would help us out the most? Leaning towards Motivate Charisma at the moment.


^-- ZARZAK - my main stats are charisma and wisdom, so charisma is definitely cool. :)

^-- DavidWL - Also, we have 2-3 casters, suggesting Determined Caster.


DavidWL - Rules Clarification Question: Wealth


Fil, how do the fixed gold rules interact with:

1) Ancestral Relic? ... does this mean the feat has no benefit?

2) Item Familiar? ... do the abilites of the feat not count to a GP cap?

3) Legacy Items? ... do the abilities of the item not count to a GP cap?

4) Mercantile? ... does this not get you anything?

5) Expendabile Magic items (Scrolls, potions, wands, etc.). If I have a 500 gp scroll, I use it, am I now under my gp cap, and able to buy another scroll, or have I burned these 500gp forever? Or can I just not use it to get a new scroll until ... the next adventure ... the next level, etc.


ZarZak -


^--- For legacy items I was assuming that the cost I pay in gp counted towards the level the level cap, and if I can get around the gp cost it doesn't apply ... please correct me if I am wrong!


fil here

1,2,3--upon leveling you immediately get the full allotment of gold in your control. If it costs money, it reduces your available gold. if a legacy item or whatever requires 39k for a ritual, you just lost yer 39k forever. if you surrender the item, then the ritual is refunded. (without the rules, I don't know about refunding xp tho)

5--one shot items are not refunded. if you choose to buy 2k worth of heal potions, and use them all, then you are down 2k forever. but they won't ever break or be stolen or rendered useless unless you want to to get your money back.

4--mercantile improves your money situation, yes? anything that modifies wealth is effective... things that are more affordable for your character cost less.. buid yer own stuff, hve twice as much stuff. if a feat r ability give you ore wealth per level, then you have more.


The point of this is to guarantee equality in gear... just like point buy stats... it sucks when the wizard has all 18's and yer fighter has nohgin beter than 15... this does the same for gear. casters are more likely to burn through disposable items... balances the sword and board a tiny bit. :)

Now, if yer carrying a potion for the cleric to be revived if he dies, consider having him foot the bill, or splitting the cost between the two of you or just be willing to sacrefice for your team. (your choice.)


fil here


I've decided on the spirit world as an aspect of the game. This may change how folks consider their characters.

considering at least three of you will be directly impacted.

surreal is obviously going to make some decisions... this should make being a ghost a heckuva lot more fun for you. You can have MANY friends and foes specifically in the spirit world, and you can have a lot of folks that know of you in the material or outer planes.



If/when anyone needs them, my character can do a decent quantity of item crafting. Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor are permanent (that is, not floating) feats, considering that they're the prerequisites for Craft Construct -> Dedicated Wright. If a lot of crafting goes on, I'd prefer to use the methods from the first PHB2 web enhancement so as to not have to foot the whole XP bill.

fil kere

perfectly fair, noldor.

If folks want to pay the xp value for magic gear, they'll get a 25% gold discount.

To take advantage of this, you gotta be real tight with whoever is crafting. At least faction +3 or a PC that has appropriate history of friedship.

fil here

with the inclusion of the spirit world, y'all may want to consider the team dynamics. the shepard ith access to wherever will likely know a lot of places to gain access to the spirit world from the outer planes. so expect a forray into te land o the dead as time goes on.

cohorts can be low level spirits.

the spiit world is VERY impotant to the gods... ethereal reavers and demons like to plow into battlefileds where many are dying to gain strenght for themselves by eating soul=s tf the newly dead, most divine wars occur somewhere in the spirit world where territory is mostly "neutral".

a good god will work to build a solid network of temples to have spirit reinforcement and divine favors on the protected.. evil will do the reverse, controlling areas to torture the living to die-- food on the table.

divine characters should take this into account.

ZarZak -

One of my class features will reduce the legacy cost for one of the rituals to nothing (just gp wise). Specfically I'd save about 11,000 gp total or so. Does this class feature still apply, or does the 11,000 still get deducted from my total wealth (not really that important, I'm not quite sure what to spend money on atm, but it might be relevant for the future).

Noldor -

Is that 25% discount on items you pay xp for applied to the base price, or to the material cost for making it? The distinction lies in whether that same discount can be applied to xp, which is based on the base price.

zarzak-- yes

noldor- good point. pay the xp as tho you were craftng it yourself. take 25% of final market value afterward... if you craft gear for yourself it would only be crafting cost... not market price out fo your gold.


Surreal here -


Having plot ties to the spirit world certainly makes things interesting.


To Fil - since you have an affinity to the Ghostwalker stuff, how about making those the "normal" ghosts, while my circumstances/template are an oddity, which could partially explain why I'm still stuck in this world


To Noldor - if I am looking to build myself a body, I will definitely make use of your crafting abilities

ZarZak -

I think that as soon as we all get most of the details of our characters down we should revisit each of our strengths and weaknesses and try to work out rough roles. It looks like most of us can perform several roles reasonably well, with 1 or 2 specialized roles. If anything is lacking one of us might want to consider the Leadership feat (I know I can fit it in my build without giving anything up ... actually I might just go and do that ... :) ).

^-- DavidWL ... I agree with you ZarZak. As soon as we all get "finished" 10th level build stats down, we can start comparing. I plan on finishing the build and equipment today, which should let me do it this weekend.


Surreal I too can potentially go the leadership route, as I've already set up a potential cohort in Vic (this boy who's body I borrowed at night for my vigilante phase). While totally open, Vic would likely be a melee guy; nothing overly fancy, befitting a "town hero" type. Hmm, now I'm thinking someone with the "tomb-tainted" feats, to reflect his early deep connection with me. Or maybe half-vampire; he was attacked and drained on an adventure, but because he was so deeply connected with a ghost early on, he couldn't be fully spawned and eventually turned and killed his vampire master. He then sought me out, not knowing anyone else who might understand being half-dead. Er... ok, enough random theorizing now.

DavidWL -- I'd want to be careful about having too many cohorts who might be taking actions in combat ... I have this fear that it will bog down fast enough even with the 5 of us. (FYI: I have 2 cohorts, however they'd actually be doing almost nothing most of the time).

^^Surreal Quite true. I'll already have a dark companion/shadow thing as well. Chances are later on I'll be trying to put together a construct body, which isn't quite the same thing, but could require more book keeping.

DavidWL --

I'm thinking of replacing Sha'ir with Warmage.  This would give truely spontaneous spellcasting of any arcane spell, and at 14th level, any divine spell.  (Currently, I have prepared casting of any arcane or divine, and spontaneous casting with 10 minutes wait).  

I really like being able to not worry about preparing spells ... however, would the team be fine without that extra healing oomph?  I know that ZarZak's planar shepherd Celestine could also do a lot of this, but would this be enough? 


^^Surreal - I think we should be ok for healing. There will be plenty of spellcasting to go around. In a few levels I should have fast healing and I'm already undead, so I shouldn't require much to begin with (famous last words...)


^^DavidWL - Thanks for the feedback ... I'll be planning on changing my build from a Sha'ir to a Warmage, to get truly spontaneous casting.

DavidWL - rule clarification request - are cohorts built the same way that characters are (Gestalt, liberal sources) or are they built some other way ("normal" character creation).


^^ ZarZak - Good question, I'd like to know as well. Fil, any thoughts?



Fil here:

yes, cohorts are liberal gestalt as well.followers are standard build unles through rp a follower gets elevated to cohort (dhraksis and surreal would be interested to know that)


^^Surreal I would? Hmm, I don't have Leadership in my build yet... although I was open to the idea since I've set up Vic as a good cohort should I want one (and have a build or two brewing in mind). However, as David mentioned above I wasn't sure about going that route as that could potentially bog down the game. Unless of course you meant my "shadow/dark companion" became a cohort, which would be really messed up if it were played it off as part of my fragmented psyche


^fil here...

am I blowing your minnnnnnnnnnn-dah?

yes, I was thinking abou the companion developing into a fullshade/crusader or something. it would bog down play significantly, as does ALL cohorts. This team doesn't really need any backup, methinks, but it could always come in handy, ad any extra facets to the team to attach additional stories to is good.


on the note of cohorts, click.



^^Surreal Oi vey, that could be... interesting. I like it though (does that mean I should plan on taking leadership as my next feat, or will this sort of thing "just happen"?). Maybe it's the rational (ie: lawful) part of my psyche that's coalesced (since in my story I said David culled it together in an attempt to heal me). This would leave Sul himself more Chaotic. Then there's still the good/evil duality, assuming there is one in the first place (great for messing with inner conflict). Heh, the more I think about how twisted this could be, the more I like it. Fil, will you be handling the development of my shadow yourself, or will I? In which case, I'll need to know how a shadow fits into your gestalt/build rules. Shadows don't really have an LA per se, and the suggested one in Savage Species is +7, which is rather unplayable. Of course, this potentially wouldn't kick in until later (if at all) in the adventure, but it never hurts to plan ahead.



fil here 1-19

the shadow/companion would be the same as a shadow's statistics... just like a shdowdancer, but including the dark companion bonus rom hexblade. you can call and withdraw it as you please, just like the dark companion rules. If you decided to blow a feat on leadership, then this would be a good cohort... it does gain gestalt with the 7ecl on one side, the other for whatever you want. You certaily don't have to take leadership, but this one is a too sweet to pass up.


^^Surreal I strongly considered it, but with the LA and lousy undead HD, I don't think a cohort shadow

would really measure up. I'll probably look at introducing Vic as a cohort later on (or maybe the detective unless you want to use that as a possible enemy), but for the moment there are already several other cohorts running around plus my shadow, so I think we may already have a crowd.


^^Surreal Thinking it over again, combined with the dark companion abilities I guess it isn't too bad considering it's gestalt. So would that be 3 shadow HD on one side and all the LA on the other? Maybe I could draft up some sort of negative aura monkey. Still, then I'd have to deal with a fragment of my psyche being a cohort, which is just weird.


Just thought I should mention here that I don't really have a way to heal myself yet, and being undead I require negative energy, so for all the casters in the team please keep that in mind when prepping spells.


^^DavidWL - Will do. Thanks for the heads up ... just tell me what spell(s) you'd want me to have available for you. I've got slots through level 5. Also tell me if you want it as out of combat healing, or if you want it available on the drop of the hat. (This applies to everyone, not just Surreal. If you want me to be able to cast specific spells on you, just ask. Just tell me the spells, how often you might need it, and whether you can wait or not).


fil here:

new recruits, please feel free to muck it up with us in here as you please.... everyone else, I'm looking for some serious steps towards building a team with serious backround for each other. I want you all to be willing to take bullets for each other, please!

Ravenkith here. Since you guys have your team in place, for the most part, I've come to ask what you think we need. With Drakh gone, it looks like you need a skillmonkey/tanker of some sort...


Let me know.


fil here

oh hey, noldor... getting back to the web enhancement for crafting gear... that is good. all methods are acceptable, including homebrew ritual that uses 5gp per 1 xp to pay the cost.. settin up the ritual is 500gp, and then an extra 5gp/xp needed. no one has to blow xp to build if they are willing to sacrefice "special material components" (dragonshards, of course!) instead. kinda expensive, kinda don't need to spend xp, either.

Now artificers are REALLY looking for those shards, eh? This of course, takes away from your total cash value available... more likely used by npc's then.


Surreal - I think we're pretty good for skillmonkeyness (although more never hurts), and everyone except me are pretty much dual casters. I don't think we have any empty roles to fill per se, though another meaty body on the team would probably be good. Personally I'd like to see some Incarnum and/or Tome of Battle build, as I've yet to see either of those in action. As an easy way into the storyline, someone could just pick up and play Vic (from my history), which would give immediate ties into my character as well as the spirit world.


fil here: my personal perception is that we've got a lot ofskillmoney, as surreal pinted out, we've also got 2 healers, a dedicated blaster who can also tank, the othe healer is very utility with wiz/cleric access, soon psion too. the mega skill onkey can also pull support melee well, and the ghost is pretty much a debuffer/or flanker/support melee.. unless he gets a beefy host to tank with... then it will just be pretty much a damage magnet.

what we don't have is a battlefield controller. But with the 3d nature of the spirit world, especially when travelling beyond, a tripper is pointless. a thicket of blades, or knockback, or large and incharge (or even a black tentacle caster) would allow for full spherical control of space. between the shepard, and the sha'ir getting etherealness spells use, transportation will rarely be a real issue for the setting.


Now, I'm not right out saying, "build a ToB controller", but with the amount of casters in the group, and one dead guy, if y'all plan on fighting a bunch, a controller is where to go. If you guys look to deemphasize combat, and stay in espionage/intrigue, get a guy good at networking and resources. the akashic CAN do this if needed, but his background doesn't support the typical chameleon societal integration icon.


I've got a nasty little imp on my shoulder telling me to take some of this in a call of cthulu direction... without the insanity stuff, of course, but just nasty shit happening that is unnerving. You guys won't be killed out rigt by blors or anything... my cr balancing act remains firm, but you may want to invest some energy in investigative skills, not just brute death machines.... so far the team is very pleasing to my chreative juices. so take this for what its worth.

DavidWL - As everyone else said ... we've got a lot of bases already covered (it is Gestalt, aftera all). Also, FYI: I'm planning on playing a mostly battlefield controlling caster. If we are missing roles, it would probably be some combination of synergist/buffer and tankish battlefield controller. And like Fil said - just make sure you have some out of combat uses as well.

However, with all that said, the tried and true answer is still very true. Play what you want to play :) If it inspires you, it will inspire us.




Sadly I own neither incarnum or ToB. I've been meaning to pick them up, but they're low on my priority list, as the folks I play with probably wouldn't let me use them, since they totally alter the game.


I was originally thinking of a cleric/martial rogue of mystra, but that didn't get picked first time around...the idea was a buffer/debuffer of sorts that could hold his own in a fist fight.


A druid/rogue could theoretically be very nasty...except for the fact that we're probably going up against spirits, which can't be sa'd anyways...


a monk/druid could be effective, but would have way less skills to play with.


I suppose A cleric//wizard/warweaver/bloodline of some kind could be good...but it kind of looks like someone's using that trick already...

DavidWL 1/26/07 - No one is using the Ceric//wizard/warweaver/bloodline trick ... feel free to if you'd like. Also, if you want to play a sneak attacker, I'm sure there are spells and feats which let you sneak attack all types of creatures. Remember that Fil is allowing a loose game which includes material from Dragon Magazine. Best - David.


reread my criteria for the 5th seat.

character build is my lowest priority. No one here cares what you play, they're just tossing out neat ideas.

Really, pick what you ALWAYS wanted to play but couldn't because yer dm was an ass. Then have a kick ass reason why that character works in this homebrewed eberron, and how he is linked to 2 or 4 of the other characters and-- bing! yer in.


play a dragon

play a half demon super fly arachnid formion (er, thri kreen dervish)

play drizzt... keep his name. or elminster.

play a cheater of mystara

It doesn't matter what you play as long as you are tying yourself into the game. Not a lot of folks have taken interest, but only one is getting chosen.

DavidWL - 1/27/07

Does anyone know of any feats which are between extend and empower? Extend doubles duration, Persistent sets it to 1 day. Do we know of any that would move it to the next increment? (1 rnd / level -> 1 min / level -> 10 min / level -> 1 hr per level)?

Fil - I'd imagine the range change would be a extend +1 spell level/increment change

DavidWL -

  • I'm assuming that the "Extend" feat = *2 duration for + 1. Double Extend = Up one range increment for +2. (So +6 gets 1 rnd / level -> 1 hr / level ... roughly comparable with persistent).
  • If you are ok with this Fil, then I'd also double extend a number of my 10min/level buffs. (Rary's telepathic bond, Healing Lorecall, Heroism, Magic Circle Against Evil, Mass Conviction, Freedom of Movement)
  • Tanner would do this using his Incantrix abilities. This way they'd be running most of the day, instead of before dungeon crawls. Depending on the check I can pull off, I might also chain it, so that everyone has the effect (although this isn't needed for Rary's Telepathic Bond or Mass Conviction).

^^fil here

just make sure you are documenting everything properly in easily read formats so I don't get confused. :)

^^DavidWL - will do


Rules Question: What do you think about custom spells? While I don't have anything in mind now, later I might think of things. What I'd imagine is that I propose a spell (and what I want it to do, and how I'd use it), you then set an appropriate spell level? Yes?

Actually, it now occurs to me it would be fitting with my story if I had some sort of spell (ideally 4th level, given my background) which would let me explore the Spirit Realm and Far Reaches in my dreams. Later on there is a spell which would let me do it in body (Planar Shift - 5th level)

Fil - I believe psions have such spells available to them. consider that.

All research costs apply to you, of course... you can do the research anywhere without any libraries... you just have to send yer gen off to negotiate the particular spell. you lose gold worth of bribing on the gen's part,m and we'll set a diplomacy dc.

easy sleazy.

DavidWL - cool beans

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