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Page history last edited by PBworks 15 years, 3 months ago

email: nathan dot c dot lee at gmail dot com


concept stuff

Sul - character overview, character concept, combat, background story, character hooks

SulFactionStuff - summary of faction points, info on Cabinet of Faces

SulTimeline -

Vic -

SulEquipment - equipment listings, background/stories for his equipment

SulSpirit - since I'm the one most directly connected with the spirit world, I'll probably need to have a section for this


Possession - quick link for myself since I can never find the page when I want it

SulLegacyItem -



NPCs, sort of...

Mangy Joe: mops the deck of the sonia - references here: Sonia's Crew, ...

...fleshed out: MangyJoe - factotum/incarnate on the Sonia

he Old Goblin: more than meets the eye - meeting Aurok and Sul, before the encounter, preparing for the flooddigging bulettes, ...

The Tracker: mysterious agent trailing the team - ref 1, ref 2, ref 3, ...

Maestro, Scherzo & Trill: mischief makers - Trill causes trouble, Scherzo plays with the archons, ...

The Sisters of Mercy: an unholy trio -  notes from OOC, wiki entry,  



Progression and summaries


SulDetails - class features, feat descriptions, template descriptions, etc.

SulSnapshot10 - character snapshot at level 10




Level Side 1 stuff 1 Side 2 stuff 2 BAB Fort Ref Will Skills HD Feat bloodline (fey)
1 Rogue 1 (changeling subtitution) SA 1d6, social intuition Hexblade 1 hexblade curse 1/day 1 .33 2.5 2.5 10x4 d12 able learner, master linguist, persona immersion +2 hide
2 Ghost 1   Hexblade 2 arcane resistance (Cha to saves) 2 .66 2.83 3.0 2 d12   Iron Will
3 Fey bloodline 1   Hexblade 3 mettle 3 1.0 3.16 3.5 2 d12

Quicken Manisfestation

Cha +1
4 Ghost 2   Hexblade 4 (PHB2 variant) dark companion, arcane spells 4 1.33 3.5 4.0 2 d12   charm Person 1/day (sp)
5 Ghost 3   Warshaper 1 immunities, morphic weapon 4.75 1.83 3.83 4.33 2 d12   Fey Affinity +2
6 Fey bloodline 2   Warshaper 2 morphic body 5.5 2.33 4.16 4.66 2 d12 Ghostly Grasp Low-Light Vision
7 Ghost 4   Cabinet Trickster 1 DT 2/day 6.25 2.66 4.66 5.16 6 d12   +2 Move Silently
8 Ghost 5   Cabinet Trickster 2 thought trick (daze) 7 3.0 5.16 5.66 6 d12 CT bonus: quick change Alertness
9 Mindbender 1 telepathy 100' Cabinet Trickster 3 DT 4/disrupt 7.75 3.5 5.66 6.16 6 d12 Mindsight Dex +1
10 Mindspy 1 combat telepathy Cabinet Trickster 4 confuse 8.75 4.0 6.16 6.66 6 d12 CT bonus: racial emulation Speak with Animals 1/day
11 Mindspy 2 faster mindscan Cabinet Trickster 5 DT at will, change shape, stun 9.75 4.5 6.66 7.16 6 d12   Fey Affinity +4
12 Marshall 1 motivate Cha, skill focus (diplomacy) Fey bloodline 3   10.5 5.0 7.0 7.66 4 d12 Leadership Invisibility 1/day
13 Mindspy 3 multiple scan (2) Warshaper 3 reach 11.5 5.5 7.33 8.16 2 d12   +2 Perform
14 Mindspy 4 instant mindscan Master of the Unseen Hand 1 improved CL, versatile tk 12.5 6.0 7.66 8.66 2 d12   DR 1/cold iron
15 Mindspy 5 +5 attack/AC, scan(4) Master of the Unseen Hand 2 tk wielder, sustain concentration 13.5 6.5 8.0 9.16 2 d12 ??? Wis +1
16 Warshaper 4 fast healing 2 (host) Master of the Unseen Hand 3 full attack tk 14.5 7.0 8.33 9.66 2 d12   Deep Slumber 1/day
17 Warshaper 5 flashmorph Master of the Unseen Hand 4 improved violent thrust, tk flight 15.5 7.5 8.66 10.16 2 d12   Fey Affinity +6
18 Swordsage 1   Master of the Unseen Hand 5 fling skyward 16.5         d12 ??? Speak with Plants 1/day
19 Swordsage 2 Wis to AC     17.5         d12   +2 Bluff
20 Swordsage 3   ???   18.25         d12   DR 5/cold iron




My last bunch of levels I'm not sure on. I still don't have ToB, but I threw Swordsage in there because it seems the popular thing to do, plus I think I can get Wis to AC at level 2. Either that or maybe Pyrokineticist, because flaming whips are fun.


Reason for bloodlines: pump up all my various class features because honestly they all start to lag behind by mid level. Also, the Fey's charm SLA qualifies me for Mindbender


I'm also not sure if I want to take Warshaper. Fil has said I'd be able to manifest my changeling abilities and warshaper abilities while I'm possessing a host, so that'd be neat. I'm just not sure if there's anything better than warshaper (5th level would let me change shape and stuff and as a move action, and if I grab that quick change feat from SS then I can change forms as a free action). Any suggestions?


ghost abilities:

1) melevolence

2) telekinesis

3) not sure on the third


Also not sure which SLA I should pick for the Evolved Undead template (Libris Mortis).






Fil's block to comment.

edit-- 1-11


1. as per email... your dark companion and third ghost like ability may be combined to provide you a shade as per shadowdancer... make it look like ya want... I'll allow it to be morphic due to your character being so morphic.

this will allow it to be incorporeal, have some real combat edge, interact with the spirit world and not be too powerful.

granted, str damage takes out mooks like no one's business.


^^Surreal - Ooh, that's interesting. It gives it a bit of vulnerability too, since my story has tied it into being part of my psyche. Will it still retain the dark companion ability? (-2 to enemy saves/AC... this part is actually be more valuable to me than the normal shade ones since it helps me with all my other class abilities). Will it advance similar to the Shadowdancer? (based on my character level, that will eventually get me a 15HD shadow) Hmm, how do you feel about Tiluvius99's thread (found in my handy links) about increasing the Shadow's Str damage? Regardless, I'd definitely take Empowered Ability Damage (Libris Mortis, feat, increases variable ability damage by 50%).


^fil here, yes, dark companion bonus added to shadowdancer ability. In response to the ability damage increase thread, I'd like to point out that the ghost template itself states specifically that on the etheral plane, where you have a strength score-- the corrupting touch ability damage is not augmented by strength scores, which I think is sufficient to say that NO damage bonus applies. libris mortis accepted!



2. as far as gear is concerned: bear in mind, you are effectively flesh adn blood in the spirit world. a demon or agel or any projecting wizard, githyanki, phased, blinking, or shadowwalking folks can cream you. I'd recommend you invest in gear like everyone else-- once we step out of the prime material, you are at serious risk.


^^Surreal - This is the tricky part... I can't possess hosts permanently (although I have unlimited uses of the ability, if they make their save I can't try again for another 24 hours). As such, it's difficult to bring items with me anywhere unless I continually strip my host body and have my teammates hang on to it. I was also thinking I'd spend more time incorporeal than material (but this can change). The Ghostly Grasp feat helps somewhat, but that only helps me on the material plane and I can't bring anything with me to the ethereal. That's why I'm leaning towards others modes of "wealth", such as VoP variants. I'd be willing to forego, say, 50% of my wealth for gradual stat boosts and other various Ex, SLA, or SU abilities. The remaining portion of my wealth could be maybe a golem, and just whatever gear happens to be on a body I possess. Yeah, this isn't an easy thing to solve.

^^SurrealAs far as dying is concerned, ghosts never die. They'll just reappear again in 1d4 days.


^fiol here:

the ghost retains its stuff when possessing the body. possession takes it out of the spiritual plane, tho. so you need to divide up material posession s into two categories:



mental will still work like normal whether in or out of a body.

physical stuf will affect you like normal in the spirit world, but will not function at all while within a host. whatever gold was alotted to physical stuff will become a "floating gold" allotment for you to make use of whatever gear is on a person. If you plop into a high level warrior wielding magic armour and swords of the gods, I'll motlikely decideon the sport that they are either intelligent, and won't work if you can't afford them, or something similiarly cheesy. If you are looking to have a combat hardened flesh suit, you may just want a construct. that resolves a lot of problems. boost yer cha, grab a SR doodad, a pair of ghost touch weapons, and a dorje of astral construct. manifest, activate construct, possess construct, wreak havok, disappear. as you can afford a better caster leve, just dump more gold intot he item, it will automatically upgrade. you'll lose ex abilties and what not, so just augment the thing to be tougher and stroner instead. you'll still have your abilitis to use whil in it... does that work?


3. as per the evolved undead template, you get an sla. as per your request, you want to alter memories, so use the bard's modify memoyr.. its 4th level and pretty comparable.

as far as we know, magic jar means folks lose awareness of the world around them. so you'll need to spend some time explaining folks' blacking out.


^^SurrealCould you make it at least 5 min/level? If I'm possessing bodies for hours at a time, I think I'll need to wipe out a little more. Hmm, still undecided if I want that or Greater Dispel Magic. Oooh, or maybe (Greater) Bestow Curse. That's fit the theme quite well. Drat, so many tasty options.

There is no clear ruling on what happens to the hosts consciouness when I possess them. The ability references Magic Jar, but then makes the exception that the host mind doesn't go anywhere. If you rule that folks black out, then I won't need to worry about modifying their memories (although that could still be fun).


^fil here:

it is as per magic jar... they remain aware of life forces around them, but they can't do anything about it... they effectively black out, and chalk it up to a very ambiguous dream with almost zero details. I'll make it 5 min/level. if you want the memory alteration... otherwise, curse and dispel are very potent.


every one else's block to comment


^^Noldor--For reference, incorporeal creatures that are forced to become corporeal gain a Str score equal to their Cha score, and their deflection bonus to AC becomes natural armor. This is mentioned somewhere in Libris Mortis. Perhaps that would happen to Sul. Though the lack of a Con score makes one wonder what happens to the other aspect of "flesh adn blood" sic...would Int or Wis be appropriate?


^^Surreal - ghosts don't gain a Str score when they manifest, I think they use their Dex to modify attacks (I'll have to double check). They do gain Cha to AC though. Regarding the "forced to become ethereal" part... I'll have to comb through LM to find out what happens; I can't find it at the moment (anyone got a reference?)


^^Noldor - But ghosts are normally still incorporeal whether they manifest or not. I'm referring to situations like Ghost Trap where they're forced to lose the effects of that subtype.


Along the lines of a golem...would you prefer a regular one, an effigy, or an elder eidolon? The last one just sounds cooler, though I'm currently unable to find my copy of Lords of Madness.


^^Surreal - Wow, those Elder Eidolon are pretty nice. I think they're pound for pound cheaper than other constructs too. If we're going with the spirit world thing and travel to the plane of Shadows, then a Shadesteel Golem (MM3) would be pretty powerful. I'm still unsure as to how I want to handle my wealth/construct thing. In any event, this is a detail we can figure out for later.


Hmm, the other day I also was musing about trading in maybe a third to half of my wealth for the ability to manifest Astral Construct as my body, ML = level, with PP = level*ChaMod. That would give me something moderately strong to call up in battle if need be (although it'd probably still be better to possess the opposing meatshield), or give me something I could form into humanoid shape for social interactions without having to borrow a body (and with those PP, I would be able to keep up the level 1 version for maybe a quarter of the day). Kind of a random idea though; don't know if Fil would like it.


^fil here:

I just read this after posting the construct dorje idea. I think we can bootstrap a persistent metamagic onto that 1st level construct eventually.or perhaps a figurine of wondrous power.. astral construct? usable x hours a day?


^^Surreal - I kind of like both ideas (call me indecisive that way). I like the idea of an astral construct x hours/day (would it have to be all at once or could it be incremental?) as it gives me a somewhat malleable body (once again with the whole changeling theme... would any of my changling/warshaper abilities work here?), have lots of customizable options, and is very convenient and can be manifested wherever I go. On the other hand, it does feel like a bit of an easy-out. Trying to build/finding myself better construct bodies to inhabit is a bit more cumbersome, but probably offers more adventure hooks.


Maybe let me edit more of my history and see where my meandering imagination takes me (if anywhere at all). Do you have any preference Fil?


Surreal - The psicrown of astral legion is 47250 gp and lets me manifest a 9th level astral construct (50 charges). A continuous use item (using the estimated pricing guidelines) is about 250K, which is about a third of my wealth at ecl 20. I think earlier on in my career, I will be searching for bodies to build/possess for myself. Then maybe later on after some quest I’ll find an item or gain the ability to manifest an astral construct, at which point it will account for a quarter of my wealth (I estimate down to a quarter since it will have the limitation that it won’t do anything without me possessing it).

a) Aw heck, I should just go with the psicrown as it’s much cheaper.

b) but with the continuous use item, I could continuously re-manifest it and change my menu abilities, which is very changeling like (unless Fil would be so gracious as to allow me to do such things using option A)



the charged item is roughly 1000 gold per charge... it's gonna add up over time. you will eventually pay the cost of the use activated... might I suggest you start off with a once per day item, itll be 50k... but you can up it to 2/day at 100k etc. until you can choose to afford at will at 250k...

Granted, this is taking on a very anime feel to it... "Initiate transformation sequence!" and bam! transformed into construct juggernaut! I see no reason why warshaper can't work on a malleable astral costruct... I personally think it's baddass!


^^Surreal As I mentioned earlier, this can probably be a quest thing later on (as 50K is already out of my price range at the moment) so we can put the idea on backburner. I'm not used to your money system yet, and the whole concept of upgrading items. Conceptually I know what you're getting at; I'm just not used to calculating things that way. Heck, I'm not even used to "purchasing" items, since in any of my previous games, shops were nearly non-existant except for mundane supplies.


Re: questions about warshaper/changeling abilities on constructs

a) would you let the abilities work on a flesh golem? (or other malleable types, such as clay?)

b) would the construct gain fast healing?

c) would the Con boost go to waste or would there be some benefit somehow? (extra hp like Con? extra hp as if a size category larger? maybe powerful build instead?)


Hey... a flesh golem only costs 20k gp. I wonder if I can fit that into the storyline somewhere.


edit: actually, going back to the astral construct item, a 1/day item to manifest a 7th level astral construct runs me about 30k which is actually affordable. Would you consider any price reduction if the construct were inert unless possessed?



Question: Do I accrue age bonuses/penalties for being a ghost? I'd think the mental bonuses might, but I don't really see physical stats going down...

^fil here

I don't see why not... but you do have physical properties in the spirit world... I say if you get the good, you get the bad.

^^Surreal Yeah I guess it makes sense to balance the good with the bad. In a normal body, the penalties accrue because your body just gets old and starts breaking down. A ghost body getting "old" is just... odd. Meh whatever, I'll have to rearrange my stats a bit.



Fil, you noted above that I can have items with me in the Spirit World, and noted the difference between the mental and physical. So I just wanted to ask/clarify again:

1) If I manifest (not possess), do my physical items come with me? (ex: a sword, armor, etc)

2) If I possess, you said my non-mental items do not come with me, but then the money allocated to those items becomes "floating" gold to equip my host body right? (so my magical spirit sword wouldn't appear, but then my host would have some equivalent item?)


^^fil here 1-22

1) if you manifest, all yer stuff comes with you... if its ghost touch, then it'll work.. armour and weapons.

2) if you possess-- hmm. good point... what happes to a solar's bow if he channels into someone? Aha! he keeps it! all magic gear you have will override whatever gear the possessed may have. so yer armour and weapons and other gear would be available for you to use as normal on the spirit world, while manifesting, as well as while channelling and controlling. That makes it easier, and more incentive for you to have gear. we'll asume all yer stuff expands or contracts to meet the approriate size of whatever is possessed-- but weapon damage will not change with size.

so ghost touch leather +2, a long sword +2 ghost touched, girdle of strength +4 all work. if you possess a titan, thoguh, yer sword is still doing d8(?afb) + huge bonuses +girdle boost.

You may want to leave 2k gold open for possessed specific gear to use. titan's warhammer would be nicer than yer sword. don't manifest the sword, smash with hammer.


by god, yer a complicated character. thanks for your patience ironing this all out.

^^Surreal Yeah, I was beginning to worry that I'd frustrate you with all my rules quirks. If you recall in the original RA+CO thread, I wasn't kidding when I said I was considering a 3 Int barbarian. So many problems can be solved by "smash with rock". Diplomacy not working? Hit them with a rock. Impassable trap? Throw a rock at it. That didn't work? Need a bigger rock *grin*.


Surreal As for above, keeping my gear while manifesting simplifies things a LOT (although I was hoping I'd get to play with the bad guy's toys, I understand that this would be a huge bookkeeping pain for you). And while it's a slight stretch of the rules, I was planning on taking the Ghostly Grasp feat... would you let that get rid of my need for the ghost touch enhancement on all my equipment?


Surreal - yet another question: what happens to Sul in an anti-magic field? According to the spell description, I simply "wink out"...


^^fil here

that would suk, eh? *hearty chuckle* but that just won't do. incorporeal creatures are forced onto the spirit world. you would be effectively knocked out/incapacitated if possessig someone... they would regain control. this would go for anyone chanelling or possessing anything/anyone. great purging effect. If cast in the spirit world, you already have a physical body (effectively) so you would shunt or wink anywhere... but you would lose all abilities as normal. and you would be knoed out/disabled while possessing there too.

Here's the kicker:

If you are caught in an AM filed whie in the spirit world, you are going to have all your abilities disabled as usual. Rejuvenation is a SU ability. so if you get "killed" in the S.wolrd while in an antimagic field, yer dead dead. Rejuvenation will not kick i after the field drops. Granted, an opponent will ned to know quite a bit about undead or the planes to know this will work on you at all. so no real need to fear, but it's out there.


I'd also like to point out that you seem to have spent a LOT of gold on a silver sword (ala githyanki?) we don't have silver cords in this cosmology, so if this is the "silver" you are payig or, get a refund.

Also, we need to reconsider your stats.

1. you started out alive, so at some point you had a con score. please spend at least a point on it. This may well explain why you died so easily, but fair is fair.

2. your str score is still relavent considering the nature of the spiit world. a 6 str considers 20lbs a light load... your heavy load is 60 lbs. even incorporeal, your gear will still effect your movement and relavet class features. you may not care, but it will come up.

I don't want you to be caught off guard.


re: antimagic fields

  • Yikes, that's good to know. Much fear for AMFs now.


re: silver sword

  • I was thinking that the sword (and possibly the armor) were "loot" from the Cabinet Spy I killed, because they were things that actually hurt me, which I'm not accustomed to. Plus then it'd be a way add a Githyanki into my story/factions since they always come back for their swords (which was likely stolen to begin with). But yeah, the "silver" aspect was cutting the astral cords and they also have the ability to nullify psionic abilities (DC 17 Fort or lose psionic abilities for 1d4 rounds). If you allow the transparancy effect to apply to spellcasting, then I might want to keep it. Otherwise, I'll probably drop it. I left it in initially because that's what made it a Gith sword to begin with, plus with the githcraft it allows for a 10% price reduction.
  • down the road I was planning on upgrading this into an Ethereal Reaver with maybe other stuff tacked onto it. In the current cosmology, that would presumably let me attack the material plane while in the spirit world and vice versa (it's approx +32k gp for that ability, so it's not cheap)


re: stats

  • Ok, I'll drop a point into Con. For Str... I keep forgetting that your spirit world cosmology is a little different. I had originally planned on being incorporeal most of the time and in fact unable to pick up items altogether. For the moment I'm focusing on lightweight items, such as the ectoplasmic armor (which fits in nicely with the whole ghostly image). The age penalty is what killed it. Eh, I may just leave it for the moment, but it leads to my next question...


New Question: Can I be incorporeal in the spirit world?


^^fil here

Holy hannah! I didn't realize that about the ghit weapos dirupting psionics... 150% transparency says yes, psionics, magic, and even divine will drop for d4 rounds... any kind of spell casting is shot... but sla and su is unaffected. just "spells per day" or psp usage.... this would also null arcane strikes, arcan chanelling, psionic feats requiring focus (blows focusas well) I don't have the text on hand yet... does it cancel existing effects as well?

future ethereal reaver upgrade approved.


there is no incorporeality in the spirit world. the fact that you can project onto the material is an abomonation.


that strength is sad and old. :)



re: silver sword - no it does not cancel existing effects... but thanks for the idea (*grin*)



re: traveling from the material to spirit world

  • Since I have an inherent ability to travel to and from the spirit world, I think we need to nail down just what I can and can't do. Perhaps I slip into the spirit world, but remain on the "fence" to the material (unknowingly self-imposed, until I become stronger). This would prevent me from traveling beyond what I normally could if I were material.
  • This is sort of how I started envisioned things (let me know if this fits with your conception of the spirit world; my imagination gets the better of me sometimes). There are sort of two parts to the spirit world: the "edgeworld" which is essentially overlapping the material but on a different plane, and the "deepworld" where you travel beyond the restrictions of the material plane and into the planes of wacky. The deepworld perhaps still overlaps with the material, but your reality is different. The stronger you become, the deeper you can go/understand. It is entirely possible that there is actually no difference between the material and spirit world; merely a depth of understanding. Going by this analogy, Sul currently skirts the edge (violently thrust there upon his death) and is beginning to see deeper, and likewise is started to get noticed by the denizens of the deep. Does this work?

edit: and while I'm at it, this actually creates a nice distinction between incorporeality and being a spirit, since one would be an ability (that not necessarily all spirits have) and the other a state of being. Ah, sorry, my brain is just making stuff up now. Don't want to start treading on DM territory.


^^I hage invited everyone to tread on DM territory. I just trump if ned be.


actually, your theory may be doable... shair has already discused walkig with the great old ones already.... just tippig my hand a bit, they lie beyond the outer planes, which is just further out into te beyond than any go... dead gods and tentacle things are out there. beyond the beyond. that's like a knowledge planes check of dc 45.. it just happeds tanner had an exploding die roll oe day cracked off 2 2os in a row and voila: insanity.


so I like where you are going with that.

--there are multiple primes (ECS, FRC, athas, dragonlance)

--prime incorporeality (minor magic, a few undead like shadows-- sul can hang there as he pleases, as do any demons of possession. )

--edgeworlds (decent magic like shadowwalk or etherealness, stronger undead like sul ghosts-- anyone from the deep can get there by will.)

--the beyond (deep end... astral, ethereal, inner and outer planes all rolled together--- strong magic directly acceses)

-- the farther reaches(HP Lovecraft tentacle rape-- the gods themselves may look to this place for their own strength-- few have any sort of access to this... the shair, alienist, and a few cults. This is where the daelkyr come from, and most aberations. Just gross, twisty stuff... if there were a path to it, it would be through pandemonium's screaming corridors... that's where the daelkyr first emerged as they charged through the beyond into eberron... why eberron who knows.)


with this quick little querry, you have just targeted sul and any other sha'ir for likely death by all specialist jihad, and planar arcane groups. I think I've just gotten another big chunk of gaming material to harrass you with... maybe not until level 45 or so tho.... thanks little imp that whispers in my ear, and thanks to surreal for helping it!

Make a note, David. Yer gen will keep the elemental status it has, but it slips into the secret places of the beyond to fetch what tanner requests. It's movements may not be wholly unnoticed by others. Your character now makes a TON of sense with sha'ir incantatrix, eldritch master thrown together... I think the gate is open for logical access to athar faction and alienist in the future to play up through the 40's.


hmm.. I think that is where the binder from ToM operates his effigies as well.. not-quite-spirits beyond the god's reasoning. fits rather well.

--Incarnum would have to be manipulating the spiritworld around the character directly, altering his relationship to reality. This would hold normal on any level of existence.*

--divine magic is piped to people by the gods in the beyond-- depending on the god's influence in different areas, this may be stroner or weaker as per standard planar rules.*

--arcane magic is manipulating the spiritworld directly, altering reality's relationship to itself. This is more or less effective given the current rues of reality as per standard planar rules.*

--psionics uses a spirit's own personal awareness to alter itself and reality around it. It works the same everywhere.*


*so, incarnum and ectoplasm can seem the same to the caual observer, and in a way it is the same... these are two arts that affect reality from completely opposite directions.

--incarnum is accessing the blueprints of reality directly, and siphoning those equations onto himself to change his capabilites and relationship to reality. The equations do not change regardless of what layer of reality we are cosidering.

for example, landshark boots is simply an incarnum accessing the blueprints of reality to infuse himself with aspects of said landshark. he becomes more landsharky.

--psionics alters an entity's awareness of reality. Instead of accessing available blueprints that currently exist, psionics instead is rewriting what those equations are, subconsciously. a psion who disintegrates something is basically saying, "this object no longer exists here." the equations are rewritten. poof.

--arcane magic is also altering the equations, but does so by accessing known formulae beyond one's own judgement. an arcanist learns the rules of the multiverse, and how to alter them. a psionicist learns to impose his own equations onto the multivers. an incarnum learns to borrow equations from the multiverse to add to his own equation.

--divine magic alters the equations indirectly. while arcane magic know the rules of how to bend stuff, a divine caster simply knows that stuff can be bent.it's faith is then channeled into the intuitive intellience of the multiverse to affect those changes... those that worship a god will power the ideals of that god when accessing the intuitive intelligence. those that don't follow a particular god still access that intelligence, but the focus is more ambiguous as an ideal, instead of a personality.

This differs from psionics because the psionicist is directly altering the equation, while diviners are influencing the intuitive intelligence to maintain the equations.

--akashic access this intuitive intelligence as well, but in a much more limited manner. the intelligece of the multiverse knows all that is. by dipping into that awareness, the akashic becomes and experiences more than she could ever alone.

-- this intuitive intelligence that maintains the multiverse could simply be an idle thought or daydream of what lies in the farther reaches. daelkyr could be a nightmare this mind had, the sha'ir's gen could be picking flowers in a garden of matrices, fetching blossoms whose nectar recodes reality itself. the sha'ir simply holding a bouquet for the intuitive intelligence to snif at.

Or not. could it be that the farther reaches is just looping back into one's own awareness? the psionicist really touching the farther reaches through hinmself? so that we are all truly one... Life is truly but a dream where reality is simply dreaming of itself.


Is that kinda like what you were thinking, surreal?

^^Surreal a little of column A, a little of column B. Not exactly what I had in mind, but I only had a rough sketch whereas you have expanded quite a bit. I like it though. This whole section should probably be cut'n'pasted into the world/cosmology page.


- I like the edgeworld/spirit world/deep spirit world approach a great deal. Also, it is exactly the case that I want my Eldritch Master to be something like a Great Old One.

- However, I don't want the Eldtrich Master to be either Evil or Tentaclely. Frankly, I'd imagine it as an undescribable being which doesn't really think much about our world, and entertains itself with unknowable ponderings which only make sense in the Very Deep.

- I'd prefer to not have tons of people in the planar know hunting me (specialist jihad, and planar arcane groups). This is mostly because I'd prefer that it not be commonly known or understood. To even know what it is that I have a relationship with should be something like a Knowledge(The Planes) DC check of 35. There shouldn't even exist many people who understand, let alone know what I do.

- I like the idea of certain (rare) spirits being able to see what my Gen is doing (going to the deep beyond and "picking flowers")

- I *love* the way this fits, with the mechanics and the story sort of blending together. ("Your character now makes a TON of sense with sha'ir incantatrix, eldritch master thrown together")

- Finally, I agree tha this stuff should probably be cut'n'pasted into world/cosmology page ... but I think that is more for you to decide.


^^fil here... oh, cmon, david! I overexagerated for the drama... but I did say dc45 to be where you have been.

No, tentacle thingies is just the asumed sterotype. of course budha and jebus are kicking it free willy style out in the far reaches.... but for those hierophant assassins you can expect around level 25, they are thinking tentacle terror. skip the alienist if you want.

and no, githyanki will not destroy the entire planet for ganking one of their ships... the artifiers already did and we're doing fine.


sure, I can cut and paste this. glad you guys like it. I always hated the bs "i dunno wut it is, it just a type of majik, I gess." I've been picking around this theory for years now. I would say this is the most solid, well defined mechanics for what we are doing here yet.

kudos to all involved!




Note to self: make friends with the Githzerai, or possibly Illithids (because being dead probably means I am untasty by conventional means).

of course budha and jebus are kicking it free willy style out in the far reaches

I just got this surreal (pun) image of the dudes doing a freestyle breakdance challenge... or possibly crunk.


^^fil here. they are definitely big pimpin'.


Surreal Check out the MM2 3.5 update manual and look at the Brass Golem and the price to create one. Wow is that cheap.


Questions for Fil: if I build a golem body later on can it be repaired even if reduced below 0 hp? Can I upgrade from one type of golem to another?



^^fil here

you can repair the golem from 0 hitpoints. No problem.




Just a note on the silliness that is detect thoughts: given that I can communicate telepathically, digging deeper for information is actually quite easy. All I have to do is ask them, and even if they don't want to answer willingly, the answer will become a surface thought. If I'm careful, the target may not even realize I'm probing for answers. They'll just feel "random thoughts" going through their head.


I question people for a living... believe me, if you don't do it delicately you throw up walls. I believe this will be very similar. I'm thinking a sense motive check will allow for "fishing" for answers. dc 10 (virtually automatic) for random chit chat, dc 15 if the questions persist, or it's something the target is edgy about (paranoid... gets defensive and you may get bs info) dc 20 for a dark secret of their own. (immediate paranoia regarding the particular subject.)

If you want to go fishing, make a sense motive check blindly. depending on how sweetly you roll, I'll give you what you can get.I'll thrwo on faction and circumstance modifers to the dc's... friends and what not will naturally be more open than foes.

This may defy conventional logic, but we gotta have SOME SORT of mechanic in place.


^^Surreal Sounds good, I can work with that. It gives me an excuse to keep up my Sense Motive skill too (which I wanted to keep for character reasons)



Regarding the Sharn Produce Consortium, I was actually thinking that Sul in his original life was a merchant/grocery (moonlighting as a bit of a fence/black market of course). Could he potentially have worked for the SPC? It might give some knowledge or contact tie-ins for later, albeit those would be three decades out of date.


Comments (7)

Anonymous said

at 10:03 am on Jan 8, 2007

noldor-- Yeah I've played a MotUH... a darkmantly1/2 beholder with 4 TK eyestalks. technically each stalk was capable of a full round attack. so I had adamantine immovable rods built into mancatchers and called myself a bounty hunter... upon successfully hitting a target, the rod would activate as a trap, effectively stopping them.
disintegration and cause wounds and charm monseter were just candy added in.

Maybe he'll make an appearance in game at somepoint. :)

Anonymous said

at 10:05 am on Jan 8, 2007

On a more serious note, Ghosts should be utilizing the ghostwalker class progression, not the template. Anyone that dies has the option of using ghostwalker until rezzed or raised-- or stay a ghost, or reroll new character if you wish.

Anonymous said

at 3:13 pm on Jan 8, 2007

Surreal - The Ghostwalker from Sword and Fist? That's a totally different thing.

NoldorForce said

at 6:24 pm on Jan 8, 2007

Fil is probably referring to the Ghostwalk campaign setting, by Monte Cook and Sean K. Reynolds. From what I recall, it's the last thing those two did for WotC before cutting loose for their own projects.

Anonymous said

at 10:25 pm on Jan 8, 2007

Surreal - I am not too unfamiliar with the Ghostwalk setting, so I will likely just stick with the template. From what I recall from browsing the book, the ghostwalk "ghost" is a very different thing from the MM ghost template.

Anonymous said

at 1:03 am on Jan 13, 2007

again, template is good to go...normal dead folks will use ghostwalk. only the unusual or significant folks might be ghosts. so yer not just one of a bunch. yer pretty special.

ChristopherGroves said

at 8:09 pm on Jul 20, 2007

Hey Surreal ... just a thought ... if you've got a spare feat around 18 or so you could consider either swordsage or monk and ascetic mage - is your CL for SLAs counting for pre-reqs? Incidentially, the wording on ascetic mage seems to apply switching from WIS to CHA for ANY class that does AC that way including Swordsage and/or Ninja ...

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